What does not get mentioned is the "Heads I win, tails you lose" position easily taken by Anne. There are numbers of people who formerly drank to excess, got a grip on themselves, and have successfully and consistently begun to practice moderate drinking. One person, in particular, is habitdoc. www.habitdoc.com Anne's "Out", of course, would be "Oh, that just shows that the person was not a 'real' alcoholic." The recovery group movement's advocates can never lose this way.